Discussion:
TOC Margins
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W***@adobeforums.com
2007-05-03 21:10:12 UTC
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Is there some way you can actually set the right hand text (not page) margins in this cursed program? Is it possible to do the same thing to TOC styles, add leaders (ie; ......) to them, and set TOC page numbers flush right, like you can with a normal, sane, user-friendly program like Word or FrameMaker? The palettes don't get me where I want to go.
D***@adobeforums.com
2007-05-03 22:52:38 UTC
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Yep, it's possible. I suppose you'd like to know how. But you sure go about asking in an unpleasant way.

The answer: change the TOC paragraph style definitions to match your needs.

Dave
W***@adobeforums.com
2007-05-03 23:52:28 UTC
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<sigh>. Not from the New Table Contents Style window it ain't. None of the Entry Style, Page Number, Between Entry & Number, nor either of the two Style drop-down menus seem to allow it. Maybe this is one for Robert Stack (if you get my meaning).
D***@adobeforums.com
2007-05-03 23:56:56 UTC
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Paragraph styles are defined in the Paragraph Style palette.

You might need to click More Options in the TOC dialog to get all the possibilities.

<sigh> back at you.

Dave
W***@adobeforums.com
2007-05-04 00:23:04 UTC
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Defined, yes. Change-able, no. Not in my Palette that I can find, anyway. All I want to do is reset the right margin (which the graduated ruler bar should - but won't - let me do) and put ........... leaders from TOC entries to the right hand edge, as with Modify Style in Word.

<sigh> <sigh>.
D***@adobeforums.com
2007-05-04 01:12:52 UTC
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Paragraph Styles palette. Right-click on the style you want to edit and choose, ta-da, Edit Style.

Dave
J***@adobeforums.com
2007-05-04 11:28:37 UTC
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Post by W***@adobeforums.com
set TOC page numbers flush right,
You may already know this, but it requires the right-align tab to get this
set up properly. I usually have to finagle it a bit with the exact placement
of that tab to get it just right.

-John O
G***@adobeforums.com
2007-05-04 11:38:50 UTC
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but it requires the right-align tab to get this set up properly




Why not use shift-tab instead of tab or ^y instead of ^t?
J***@adobeforums.com
2007-05-04 18:52:13 UTC
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Post by G***@adobeforums.com
Why not use shift-tab instead of tab or ^y instead of ^t?
Hmmm. I don't know. Why *would* I use that? (no idea what it does...)

-John O
P***@adobeforums.com
2007-05-04 18:11:10 UTC
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Hmmm. I don't know. Why *would* I use that? (no idea what it does...)




That's the "right indent tab" which is perfect for this sort of thing because it automatically adjusts to the far right of the paragraph width, either the frame or the frame minus any right indent, even if you change the frame width.

Peter
W***@adobeforums.com
2007-05-04 20:47:27 UTC
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There MUST be a way to get ruler in Palette>Edit Styles to function like a ruler should, that is, let me set the right hand margin. ^y? ^t? Yikes. Are we reverting back to MS-DOS WordStar?
G***@adobeforums.com
2007-05-05 11:44:22 UTC
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Wildman, please, go back to using FrameMaker. It seems not only you but the entire world would be happier for it.
Or - if that alternative interpretation should be the correct one - go back to your troll cave.
P***@adobeforums.com
2007-05-05 22:58:01 UTC
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Hi, Wildman:

If you're comfortable in FrameMaker, you probably know that there's an interplay between the text frame's width and the tab stop position(s) that are defined for the paragraph style (called "paragraph format" in FrameMaker).

In FrameMaker, you probably know that you define paragraphs in the Paragraph Designer; for example, you define tab stop positions in the Basic Properties page. InDesign's Paragraph Style panel is similar. However, neither of these tools can set the width of the text frame that contains the paragraph.

In InDesign, as in FrameMaker, when you first define a page layout, you set page margins. The difference is that in InDesign, setting page margins doesn't set the text frame dimension for document ("body") pages; if you choose the option to create Master Text Frames. Master page text frames in InDesign take the dimensions of the space between the page margins. Unlike FrameMaker, however, InDesign master page text frames don't appear on document pages, except when you click a loaded "Place gun" to import placed content. Many users find InDesign's master page text frames confusing because of this, and some other behaviors.

You haven't given sufficient detail for us to understand what step-by-step procedures you're using that take you into this confusing area.

From my FrameMaker experience, I'd guess that you're clicking a cursor loaded with a newly-created TOC onto a page, but it's not working as you expect, based on your FrameMaker experience.

If you've been using master text frames for your work in the document, these possibilities come to mind:

* You may be expecting to find a text frame on the document page where you want to place the loaded TOC. Because master text frames become active when you click on their body-page location to place content, there's no body-page text frame present (as in FrameMaker) that you can adjust to fit the line width of placed content until after you place it. You can "pull" the master text frame onto its body page by using Cmd+Click (Macintosh) or Ctrl+Click (Windows) without a loaded cursor. This disconnects the text frame from the master, and you can adjust it as in FrameMaker.

* You may be trying to adjust body-page text frames with Layout > Margins and Columns. This command only adjusts the margin and column guides; it doesn't adjust the text frame's dimensions. When you flow loaded content by clicking within margin or column guides on a new body page that has no text frame, the text flows within the guides.

If there's a master text frame lurking on the master page, the flow of placed content follows the columns defined for the master text frame when the document was first created (or saved as a new-document preset). If a master text frame was created as a single column the size of the page up to the page margins, changing the margins and columns after the document is created doesn't change the properties of the master text frame. That one column master text frame of that initially-defined size does not readjust to whatever new margins and number of columns you choose in Layout > Margins and Columns.

Most folks on these InDesign lists suggest not to use master text frames, because of the complex rules they seem to follow.

So, that leaves you with that TOC loaded into your cursor's place gun, and wondering what to do to get the frame margins you need for your TOC design. One method is to drag the loaded cursor to the dimensions you want. Another is to click and flow the content into one text frame, which will probably display the overset symbol (a > triangle) at the small box near the lower-right of the text frame, known as the "out port." You can resize this frame before reloading the overset content. This should enable you to set the dimensions (margins) wide enough for your TOC paragraph styles to spread out to the tab stops you've set.

If the TOC paragraphs don't expand to the tab stops as you expect, check the definitions in the TOC setup to be sure that you've defined the tab characters (not tab stops) that you need between entries and page numbers. This is similar to the jumping-around you need to do in FrameMaker to set tab characters in the paragraph prototypes in the TOC's reference page specification, so that the generated TOC content works correctly with the defined tab stops in the paragraph format.

* Oh, your FrameMaker expectations may be introducing confusion because of the difference between the way FrameMaker's tabs and tab stops work. InDesign's tabs and tab stops work like almost every other computer writing tool. FrameMaker's tabs and tab stops work differently from almost all others.

In FrameMaker, the first tab character in a line of text is absolutely controlled by the first tab stop set in the ruler, UNLESS the tab character is to the right (has passed, in Western left-to-right languages) of the tab stop. If the tab character has passed it's one-and-only tab stop, it's dead, it does nothing. The second tab character in the line of text is controlled by the second tab stop. Here's where the difference comes in: the dead first tab character in this description doesn't advance to the next available tab stop, that's what a dead tab character does - NOTHING, NADA, ZILCH, NIL! Other applications, including InDesign, let that first tab character move to the next available tab stop.

Whew!

Suggested InDesign search terms to find appropriate reading in InDesign help includes TOC setup, master text frames, tabs, tab-stop, and tab leader behavior, placing and flowing text. etc.

HTH
________________
Regards,

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
P***@adobeforums.com
2007-05-05 23:07:05 UTC
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which will probably display the overset symbol (a > triangle)




Actually the overset symbol is a little red plus sign. You get a little triangle when the out port has been threaded to another frame. :)

Peter
P***@adobeforums.com
2007-05-06 16:15:17 UTC
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Thanks for the correction, Peter S.

Actually the overset symbol is a little red plus sign. You get a little
triangle when the out port has been threaded to another frame.

________________
Regards,

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

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