imported spot-color gradients convert to CMYK -help!

[Howard Latimer]

When exporting to PDF out of InDesign 2.0, my spot-color gradients created in Illustrator are being converted to 4-c process. Not sure why - the spots go from 100% to 5% of the same spot color. Any thoughts or work arounds?

[unknown]

Exporting how? What are the settings? Are you really referring to ID 2.0
or do you mean CS2? Are you sure they're spot color?

Bob

[Howard Latimer]

InDesign 2.0. File>Export>then I have a modified version of PDF print settings (300 ppi color/300 ppi grayscale/1200 for text) - Color is left as Unchanged. The .ai file whic is imported into InDesign contains one spot color. The only part of it that separates into 4 plates is the gradient - the rest of the imported file, when exported thru InDesing into a PDF, is treated (correctly) as a spot plate.

100% sure the "blue" is a Pantone 293u.

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Being called Pantone 293u doesn't guarantee that it's defined as a spot in Illustrator. It wouldn't be the first time someone redefined a swatch from spot to process for some "convenience," so I'd recommend taking a look at the original file to be sure.

Peter

[Howard Latimer]

Thanks, Peter and Bob - The color Peter referred to is definitely a spot color, not a converted-to-process color ("Out, out, damn process!"). I came up with a work-around: I exported the illustrator graphic as an EPS and replaced all the linked .ai files in my InDesign file with the new EPS. I then "printed" to PDF via InDesign and checked the resulting output: the graphic correctly was sepped over to the Pantone plate.

Next week I finally get to order CS2 for work...I've had it at home for a while (out of my wallet) but finally work sprung for it. Hopefully, this won't happen in IllCS2>InDesign>Acrobat PDF...

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Hopefully, this won't happen in IllCS2>InDesign>Acrobat PDF...




Shouldn't. :)

[unknown]

Post by P***@adobeforums.com
Shouldn't. :)

But it could. If you place a graphic that has a spot color with an
identical name to a process color in ID the color will be converted to
process.

Bob

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Very good point. Colors can be redefined in ID as easily as in Illy, which could cause confusion. I suspect, though, that if the color is defined as process in ID having the placed spot version also convert would actually be a desirable outcome, else why redefine the spot to begin with?

Any chance your spot was converted in ID? was it used elsewhere and separating correctly before you went the eps route?

Peter

[Howard Latimer]

When importing the original .ai file into InDesign, the user is presented with a message to this effect "The color (whatever) exists in the document. Do you want to replace with the same color in the PDF?" I answered no (I am using the same spot pantone in the InDesign doc). And the spot was NOT converted to a process.

Also (it's too bad I can't show you the seps generated by Acrobat) the stroke and the text in the .ai file did correctly separate onto the pantone plate. Both were solid, 100% coverage of the same spot color. It was only the gradient that was converted to CMYK when outputting to PDF. The gradient, FYI, went from 100% to 5% of the same pantone, not a Pantone to White. Total gradient coverage was only about one-half inch.

[G***@adobeforums.com]

"The color (whatever) exists in the document. Do you want to replace with
the same color in the PDF?"




If that detail should be unknown: that message vanished in CS2. The InDesign definition of the colour is taken in all cases. Which can result in an AI spot to be converted to process without me even noticing it.

Gerald

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Gerald,

Again, don't you think this behavior is the desirable effect? In general, why would you want to define a color globally as process in the document and leave it as spot on an imported graphic?

The only circumstance that comes immediately to mind would be for some sort of bump plate, and that's specialized enough I think to warrant special handling by the designer and the definition of a "new" color, either for the imported object, or probably better, the redefined spot-to-process color in ID.

Howard,

It hasn't been asked or mentioned what version of AI made the gradient. I'm hardly an Illustrator expert, but I wonder if gradients from earlier versions might be handled differently than newer ones.

Peter

[unknown]

It is not a desired effect at all. Consider the person putting together
a document that requires files being submitted by a few staff artists.
One of them accidentally defines a color as process instead of spot.

I want a warning when this type of thing happens. Removing that warning
was a bad move. With the silly warnings that still exist, I can't
understand why this one was removed.

Bob

[G***@adobeforums.com]

don't you think this behavior is the desirable effect?




That entirely depends on how you work. In your (Peter's) case I would agree that you know what you are doing.

Not too long ago I talked to an irate customer who told me this scenario:
they look after a large customer whose logos are saved as EPS with spot colours and clearly defined alternate colours.
So the same EPS can be used in a 2c job as well be printed on a colour printer as well as be converted on the fly from InDesign always resulting in the same CMYK-values for the coloured areas of the logo.
This worked fine until that day that some designer prepared an InDesign document, needed that CI colour and defined it himself in InDesign using some CMYK-values that more or less looked OK. At least he defined it as spot but he got the alternate colour completely wrong.

IDCS1 would have warned him of the mistake during the import of the EPS.
IDCS2 cost them a bundle since nobody noticed that the EPS did no longer have its original alternate colour but some fantasy values.

YOU know what you are doing. MANY don't. At least warn them or (even better) give them the choice they had in CS1.

I don't think that the choices done in InDesign always have a higher priority than the choices in CI approved files lying on my server. On the contrary.

That warning did no harm, did it? Loosing it did harm.

Thanks
Gerald

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Both of you make good points. I do tend to assume that people should know what they are doing when they start to be professionals, but as you note, that isn't always the case.

I have no objection to the warning -- I love warnings -- but I'm not sure it would help the situation beyond alerting that something is awry. The user MUST understand what the warning means and make the right decision, no? If you answer one way, your spot will be converted to process as defined by the document, if the other way, your process will get redefined as spot.

Gerald said the warning was eliminated in CS2 and the color is replaced with the document definition automatically. I took that to mean a defined process color could be converted to spot as well as the other way around. But now I'm really confused because I just did a little experiment.

Here's what I did. I made a simple rectangle in AI and colored it Reflex Blue C using the book definition, so it is spot. I made another file the same way, but redefined the color to be process in Illustrator, so now I have two files with swatches named Reflex Blue C.

Next I made 2 new files ea in ID 3 & 4 with Reflex Blue C swatches. I defined one of each to be spot and one to be process.

Here's what I found:

In all cases, the file that had the process definition of the swatch imported without warning into the ID file, and retained it's process definition. If, however, I tried to import a spot definition into a file with a process definition I got a warning in CS and it either converted the color to to process or to spot, depending on the answer, as mentioned above, so there was uniform color defined. In CS2 it was converted as Gerald said into process without warning.

This is not exactly the same as converting everything to the document definition. Also, both of the imported files can co-exist in the same file happily. I suspect all of this is because ID does not import the swatch with the process definition when you place the file, it simply imports the color, whereas it does import swatches defined as spots in order to create the plates.

I can see where this could be a problem for a collaborative situation where someone mistakenly redefines a spot to process in ID. Assembling the files into a book and synching colors could mess up the entire book if the process file were chosen as the reference. On the other hand, it requires a real effort to make this happen -- you must deliberately re-define the spot to process in ID, so it is rarely likely to be an accident.

I think the opposite situation would crop up more frequently, i.e. the color is redefined outside ID and what you presume is a spot color comes in as process without any warning at all. I guess this just reinforces the necessity to understand what the spot/process difference is, and to learn to use the separations preview before going to press, just to double check.

Peter

[P***@adobeforums.com]

I've just re-read Gerald's previous post and I think he was hinting at something a bit more subtle than I grasped the first time through. You might have two definitions for the color, both spot, but with different CMYK substitution values. In CS2 the InDesign value is used without warning. I agree this is a serious problem -- far different from what I was thinking about.

Peter

[Howard Latimer]

Wow - outputting predictable, consistent color has always been a "can of worms", and apparently it has been reopened with a vengeance! While my original issue concerned older versions of software - Illustrator 10, InDesign 2.02, Acrobat 6.0 Professional - it appears as if another important issue has been raised that perhaps Adobe could look into.

To sum: First, there may indeed be a weird color conversion from a spot to a process that takes place when importing a native .ai into InDesign 2.02 and then exported out to PDF (Acrobat 6.0). I believe the error occurs when exporting to PDF, but I can't be sure. Second, it looks like a perfectly good warning was eliminated from CS2, and perhaps ought to be put back in.

I carefully rechecked the .ai file - the color in question was definitely a spot color. The solid text and stroke separated correctly; it was only the gradient that did not. After importing into InDesign 2.0, I have only one definition for that particular Pantone, and it is a spot color. When I return to work Monday, I may set up a test case and see if I can somehow print separations from InDesign, to test and see if the conversion takes place in InDesign. I am leaning towards the conversion occuring in Acrobat 6.0 Pro.

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Howard,

I still think it may be the AI file. Did you check the gradient stops to see what color was assigned to them? It's possible that the gradient was copied from another file or that the colors for the stops were defined as cmyk and that there is no swatch set up for them.

Peter

[Howard Latimer]

Hi, Peter:
Yes, not only did I check it, but I also tossed out the Pantone and started again from scratch. I chose the Pantone 293U as a spot, and in the palette, it shows up as a spot, not a process. I also built the gradient using a 100% to a 5% of that same spot color, not 100% to a white or 100% to a different spot color. I replicated the problem by creating a simple rectangle with a similar gradient fill in Illustrator 10, brought it into InDesign 2.0, and exported it out. Same result.

Remember - there was text in the same .ai file that used the same spot color, and it separated correctly to the spot plate. Ditto for the stroke that was around the gradient. Only the gradient converted to CMYK. Again, my feeling is the conversion occurred during the "export to PDF" function out of InDesign.

Anyhow, as I mentioned, my work-around was to bring it into InDesign as an .eps. Not elegant, but it works.

[Howard Latimer]

Also - I just tried the same thing today at home, except this time I used Illustrator CS>InDesign 2.0>Acrobat 7.0 Professional. No issues. Separated correctly to the spot color plate.

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Howard,

We have no sure way to know how the file was made, and by whom, unless you tell us. :)

Glad you found both a temporary workaround and a change in behavior when you tried Illustrator CS. Might be worth asking in the Illustrator forum if others are experiencing issues with gradients from Illustrator 10.

Reading back through the post it struck me that you must have created a Pantone swatch in the ID document BEFORE you placed the illustration, else you would not have received the warning as no color would have been defined, and ID would simply import the Illustrator swatch, making it available for use.

If you have the time, I'd be curious to know if you get any different behavior by placing the illustration first, then using the imported swatch to color the native InDesign elements.

Peter

[Howard Latimer]

Hi, Peter:
Sorry, I must have missed somewhere the question as to who made the files. I did, all of them - I made the .ai file, the indd file and exported to PDf. I have thoroughly checked the spot color to ensure it wasn't somehow converted to a process - though if it had, the text and stroke in that illustrator file would have also separated onto the process plates, but they had not.

To answer your last question <"I'd be curious to know if you get any different behavior by placing the illustration first, then using the imported swatch to color the native InDesign elements">: the same separation error occurs. I created a very basic gradient in Illustrator 10 using a spot color (again, 100% to a 5% gradient) and also used the same spot on text. I placed the file into a blank Indesign 2.02 (File>Place),so the spot did not exist in InDesign. I then printed the file to PDF and selected "Separations" in the print dialog box. The resulting file has incorrectly converted the gradient only to process, yet the the same spot color in the text (which was in the illustrator file) shows up (correctly) on the spot plate.

I'll check the Illustrator and Acrobat forums to see if someone else has run into it before.

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Howard,

You didn't miss anything. We didn't ask. Just goes to show what sort of assumptions we all make about a set of circumstances.

Anyway, that's interesting behavior. I'm still suspicious of the Illustrator file -- not you, the file itself, and whether there is something going on with Illy 10. Can you put it up somewhere for download? I'd like to see what happens in ID 3 & 4.

Peter

[Howard Latimer]

Peter:
Try to grab the Illustrator file with this link: www.maclatimer.com/upload/bts_LOGO-bluebackground-blacktext.ai

If for some reason that doesn't work, I'll toss it on a regular HTML page as a link.

Thanks again...

Howard

[Howard Latimer]

Peter:
If you use Firefox, you can probably download the .ai file from that initial link. If you use IE, you may not, so try this page: <http://www.maclatimer.com/upload/link1.html> - you can try either of two links on it to get the file. Link 2 is a zip file containing the file.

-Howard

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Howard,

I've downloaded your file and I can't reproduce your problem! What build of ID2 are you using? I'm using the last version, 2.0.2, build 710.

I tried both exporting using the press preset and printing to PDF (although that may be comparing apples to oranges since I've got Acrobat 7 installed and I don't know what version you are using) using composite CMYK. Both files preview in Acrobat 7 pro as 100% spot color -- no cmyk in the gradients or anywhere else.

Please describe exactly what procedure and settings you are using to make your PDF.

Oh, I almost forgot, separations preview in CS and CS2 show only spot color as well, so I didn't bother to make the PDFs.

Peter

[Howard Latimer]

Peter:
Am using InDesign 2.02, Illustrator 10.0.3, Acrobat 6.05 Professional.

To generate the PDF:
In InDesign: File>Export>PDF. In the dialog box, I used the "Print" quality preset. Under the EXPORT submenu (on the left side of the dialog box): the color settings under Advanced set to "Leave Unchanged". That's it.

[unknown]

Use the press setting and change the Acrobat compatibility to 5.0.

Bob

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Bob,

Even without changing to Acrobat 5 compatibility I get a proper spot plate with export using the press preset in ID 2.

Howard,

Using the print preset the entire logo, including the solid type areas, is converting to cmyk when I do what you describe, which is still different from what said in your earlier post, I believe.

In any case, you want to use the press preset, or something based on it, for work going to press.

Peter

[Howard Latimer]

The Press (and the Print) preset worked this time. I guess something hiccuped earlier, as I went thru the same process again and could not get it to duplicate, even though I DID duplicate it several times the other day. Sorry to waste everyone's time - non-recurring glitches are a pain.

As I said, I was able to use the Print preset this A.M. and it did separate out. The press preset also worked great. The only reason I originally chose the Print preset was that the vendor has an old RIP and asked me to use that setting.

In the final analysis, I suppose it is something to keep an eye for - even with the new 8.0 on its way out soon.

Thanks again to all who contributed their time and energy into this issue. I was certainly perplexed, and I am not a newb at this (although there is always something new to learn every day!). Have a good day, all!