Corel Ventura to InDesign workflow?

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Where I work, we have this big huge manual (400 pages) that we put out once a year. It's the only project that I have to work on in Corel Ventura (a program I'd never even seen before coming to this job!). But as far as I can tell, Ventura is not being updated. So eventually we're going to need to move this book into another program (hopefully InDesign). We already have trouble with advertisements, sometimes even having to save PDFs into TIF files. It'd be a huge chore to redo the whole manual, but it's bound to happen eventually. So here's what I'm trying to find out:

A large portion of the book is just a directory. We have a database here -- its contents are output as an ASCII file which is linked to the Ventura document. All the paragraph and character styles are tagged in the ASCII file. So, as soon as the database is exported, the Ventura file updates. Can this be done in InDesign? Would it be done with tagged text or XML or something (2 things I don't know much about)? Are there issues this type of job would face in InDesign that would make this transition a bad idea? Maybe a different program would be preferable?

I know I've seen a few folks mention Ventura on this board, so I'm hoping someone who's familiar with that program might know the differences between what it can do and what InDesign can do regarding long documents.

I just panicked because I couldn't open the Ventura help files when I picked up on this year's manual (I'd gotten a new computer). Luckily, the I.T. department was able to get them working for me. It's difficult to work in a program only once a year and with limited background in it. I doubt I can even find a book on Ventura 10 (seems like I looked once but no one had them). Eek!

Thanks, Phyllis

[P***@adobeforums.com]

If it wasn't clear above, I meant that the directory automatically comes in already styled (bold, italic, paragraph keep options already set, etc). So I don't have to do anything to that part (at least a couple hundred pages) other than update the running header at the top of the page.

All the sections of the manual are different files, so we're constantly having to change up the page numbering in each file. Would love to see this in an InDesign Book format so that was automatic.

This job is a big old pain, but maybe by the 2010 issue I could get this into InDesign, at least if it sounds like the type of thing that would work well in ID.

Thanks, Phyllis

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Okay, forget the Ventura part. That program is probably too dead for anyone to remember!

Here's what I want to do:

I'm working on a directory consisting of short-paragraph listings which include name, address, and a few other things about specific companies.

I want to take a single directory listing, format it with paragraphs and styles, then export it as tagged text in an ASCII file. Then, I'm going to look at the tags in that ASCII file, copy them all down, and set the database to export (as an ASCII file) and include those tags around the appropriate lines during the export (okay, actually the programmers on staff would do that part, but you get what I mean). Then I want to set up templates for each section of this directory and import the tagged InDesign text files that are generated from the database so that the body of the page comes in already styled.

What I'm looking to find out is what sort of problems I'm going to run into (for starters, will this plan work?). Before I ask any programmers to try to figure out how to add in these tags on export! I'm looking to generate at least a couple of hundred pages this way. Anyone try this sort of thing? I'd frequently have to re-import (database changes constantly) which might be problematic in that I'd have to delete all the pages first so I didn't have too many (at least unless CS4 will automatically create the right number of pages when you autoflow).

I have never worked with Tagged Text, but I assume it's intended to be used this way (?). I believe this is similar to what was being done to the previous directory (the one that's in Ventura).

Any ideas? This is a fairly far-future project, but I want to come up with a plan for it.

Thanks, Phyllis

[unknown]

If it's highly structured you don't need tagged text.

You'll need a style for each paragraph of course but make sure to take
advantage of the next style in each. If you have four styles it would be
A with B next. B with C next. C with D next and D with A next.

When you place the text just select it all and right click the A style
and choose apply A and next.

Bob

[K***@adobeforums.com]

Not too late, Phyllis, I was just not checking the forum the last few days.

I've taken a dozen or so books from Ventura to Indesign, and the process
is pretty simple. You've got two choices: wrestling RTF out of Indesign
and bringing that in, same as you would with Word files, except that you
can feel a little better about the level of styling; or placing the one
big ASCII file and converting the coding to styles.

Ventura styles paragraphs like this:

@Style Name = Text in paragraph.

So you search for "@Style Name = " (without the quotes, and making sure
to include both spaces around the equal sign) and replace with the
equivalent Indesign style (which you will have to make). Then go back
and find the style name and delete it.

All other markup (I think, it's been awhile) will be found between angle
brackets. You can use GREP to find words with italic coding around them
and other local formatting and replace with character styles.

The advantage to using RTF is that you can skip the whole search and
replace thing, and the styles will be made for you (although not all
elements of the original spec will come through, just basic stuff like
font, size, lead). The disadvantage to RTF is that it's tricky to make
properly. Ventura can do it, but was not really made to do it, if that
makes sense.

If you want to contact me off forum (kbenson at pegtype dot com), I can
help you decipher specific Ventura codes. Whenever I use angle bracket
codes on the Adobe Forums, the forum software tries to interpret them as
HTML and changes my meaning or truncates the post.

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Okay thanks!!!

I'm afraid it's not going to be structured enough to do it entirely with styles (it's close but some of the listings have extra sections, etc.). At least not without a fair amount of cleanup. Whereas the programmers on staff can force an export already tagged if I can figure out what to tell them to do. The problem with this job is that we want the directory to be as up-to-date as possible. So, by automating the process, I can dump in the directory at the last minute before we go to press. I need to eliminate as much cleanup as possible in order to get the most current version!

I'll study the old text files that are being dumped into Ventura. But ultimately I have to recreate the directory from a new database so am thinking I need to figure out the tags that should go around each line and send that to the programmers. Well, I suppose I could have them generate the Ventura text files and then I could go through those. But ultimately I'd prefer to get rid of that step. This will take quite a while to figure out -- it's likely that it will be the 2010 directory before we can update (the directories are printed in January!).

Is this what tagged text is designed for, or am I trying to do something odd with it?

Ken, thank you so much for the offer of help! I likely will email you when I first get into this. I have no idea what problems I'm going to run into. I'm starting by just trying to make sure I don't suggest a major change that won't be feasible (I haven't even suggested this yet, but I'm going to). But I think this book is going to be impossible to update in Ventura in a few more years -- I think that program is just getting too outdated, even embedding the ads is starting to become problematic.

I love InDesign, but I have heard FrameMaker might be better for a long book of this nature (?). Although I don't know that program so am going to try to get this into something I know.

One of the things I'd lose from Ventura (and I hope this won't be a deal-breaker with the staff here) -- when the database is exported, the Ventura files update automatically, and I mean as soon as I open them the update has already happened -- new page count is correct, etc. I'm thinking with InDesign I'd have to update the linked file each time it changed. I think that's a reasonable exchange and only takes a minute. Do you know of any other differences in the way InDesign would handle this?

Thanks!!!
Phyllis

[K***@adobeforums.com]

A few versions ago, I was still recommending Framemaker for long books,
but at this point (CS4) a good deal of Frame's long-doc features have
been incorporated into ID, while Frame's poor typography has not been
addressed, except for Unicode (which sounds to me like it still needs a
good deal of work).

Indesign's Tagged Text is not that different from Ventura's markup, if
you're comfortable working with codes. So if your programmers are used
to outputting Ventura-coded text, it won't be a big job to figure out
what the equivalent codes are in Indesign Tagged Text and switch to them.

There are still some tricks Ventura can perform that ID can't: vertical
justification, column balancing, column spanning, probably quite a few
more that I can't remember these days. But ID's stability alone was
reason enough for me to leave Ventura for good. For years I put up with
several unrecoverable crashes daily. I think in the last six years ID
has probably crashed on me only two or three times, and I use it all
day. And for every feature that's missing in ID, someone has written a
script or a plug-in. And you're right: Corel hasn't done anything with
Ventura in many years, and probably never will. Even if they all of a
sudden decided to fix some of the 15-year-old bugs, I wouldn't trust
them not to abandon it again. Adobe is very responsive to well-reported
reproducible bugs.

Because this job sounds like database publishing, you may want something
more automated, probably something involving XML, something way over my
head.

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Oh yeah, I remember the column balancing. I did like that but could do without it.

I'm editing in Ventura right now, and it's driving me crazy!!! And I know some of it is just lack of knowledge of the program. But I have a really hard time aligning things in Ventura. Like right now I'm editing a line of copy. If I insert the cursor in the middle of the line and type *one* letter, the entire line shifts down vertically (as if an extra blank line had just been added above it), I don't know why. And I'm sitting here going "What the....?!" And I'm sure it's just my lack of understanding of the program, but it's sure irritating. I've picked up some of the old copies of this directory (before I got here), and there are alignment problems all over the place. I find it difficult to even line up two photos and size them the same. It just seems to jump out of alignment. Makes me nuts.

Okay, enough ranting. :-)

I'm glad to hear that InDesign would be a good choice since I don't really have the time to study FrameMaker and wouldn't need it for general projects. There are many sections in this book that are manually updated (as described above) -- it'd be great to do these in InDesign. So much easier...

I don't know anything about XML, thought it had more to do with Web publishing. It's likely to be used for something like this? I could look into it and see what it's about. I'm happy with the Tagged Text idea though if that seems like it would work reasonably well. I'm reasonably comfortable with codes. I know how to hand-code HTML, and lots of the other coding looks like it sort of works similary (surrounding different areas with tags). I used to have to edit around ColdFusion tags in website work (I don't know ColdFusion, but I was interspersing HTML tags inside it). Not that I suddenly want to do coding! But I don't mind wading around in it if it helps automate this nightmarish book. I hate this project.

Blah.

Thanks for your input!!!

Phyllis

[K***@adobeforums.com]

Ventura has a story editor just like Indesign (View > Copy Editor). You
might find it more satisfying to use the editor and then switch back to
Page Layout and see what changed. Ventura's Copy Editor is also a pretty
good way to get a handle on the more common Ventura codes. You could
also try CTRL w to force a screen refresh. It may very well be that
Ventura is not really showing you what's really there.

My knowledge of XML is at about the same level as yours. What I
understand about it, though, is that it's intended to be a common
language, "common" meaning that completely different programs might
understand it. So it's not just for web publishing, but for any
situation where two disparate programs need to talk to each other. RTF
is another common language, but RTF describes formatting, while XML
describes structure. I also understand that in many cases it would be
the way to go if you're frequently generating data from one program to
be imported into and automatically formatted in Indesign. Beyond that,
though, I'm clueless.

As I understand it, learning Tagged Text would be your job only as far
as to tell your programmers what you need them to provide. IOW, if they
are now giving you (where braces = angle brackets) {I}italic words
here{I*} you would need them to give you {ct:Italic}italic words
here{ct:} or with character styles {cstyle:italicstylename}italic words
here{cstyle:}. So you would probably have to go through the last pub,
bring it into Indesign, set up styles, change all the codes, and then
make a list of the codes and what you changed them to and give the list
to your programmers. Next time you just dump in the new text with the
new codes.

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Thanks Ken, I really appreciate your input. It's very very helpful! I think I'm going to suggest the Tagged Text route as I think I can make the list of codes that you mention. I think it would really help to move into a supported program!!! Plus, making an InDesign Book would be a huge help.

I hope to learn some about XML eventually though as it sounds pretty cool.

That's good to know about the story editor in Ventura. I hadn't thought to look for one of those, but that will help me right now in my work! :-)

Thanks, Phyllis

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Ken,

You often say that ID will not do vertical justification properly. I'm not familiar with the Ventura method, but I seem to recall that you said it would add spacing only between the paragraphs, preserving the leading in the text itself. Is that right?

ID can do this, too, but you need to be a little sneaky about it. When you set the vertical alignment on a frame to Justify, you activate the Paragraph Spacing Limit field. Entering a sufficiently large number here will put all of the added space between the paragraphs. If the limit is too small, space will be added between paragraphs up to the limit, then the lines of text will be spaced out as necessary to finish the justification.

Peter

[K***@adobeforums.com]

VJ in Ventura is controllable at the paragraph (or paragraph style)
level. You can allow up to a certain limit between lines and/or between
specific paragraphs or paragraph styles. Each paragraph (or paragraph
style) has settings for lead, space above, space below, VJ limit to
lead, VJ limit to space above, VJ limit to space below. This means you
can specify that heads (which already have some space above them) will
allow an additional amount of space, but text (which has no space above)
will not allow any extra space. In addition, frames have a percentage
setting for VJ, so that each frame (or frame style) can allow more or
less than 100% of VJ set by paragraphs.

If Ventura cannot justify the page according to the specified settings,
it fails, and the operator has to either exceed the specifications for
that page or go back a few pages and bring something up, run the page
short, or otherwise intervene mechanically.

Ventura is also smart enough that it won't compound space above/space
below. If one paragraph specifies 6 pts extra space below, and the next
paragraph specifies 12 pts extra space above, Ventura will ignore the 6
pts below and add 12 pts extra between the two paragraphs.

Harbs' Proper VJ plugin comes pretty close to what Ventura does, by
allowing a percentage of extra space above existing space above. So if
Body Text specifies no extra space above, the plugin will not add any
space above. But if Head 1 specifies 18 pts above, the plugin will allow
up to the percentage the operator has set, say 150% of space above, or 9
more pts.

Indesign is a great program, and Ventura is really, really unstable,
old, owned by a company that doesn't seem to know they own it. But ID's
VJ is a very blunt tool. The worst part is that it treats VJ the same
way it treats horizontal justification: It never fails, no matter how
ridiculous it makes the page look.

Ventura would be a great product if Corel fixed the bugs, added support
for Unicode, added ID's paragraph composer. But I think they'd have to
pay me to come back.

OTOH, Adobe keeps adding features I like without introducing a whole
boatload of bugs each time. Maybe they'll improve VJ someday.

[D***@adobeforums.com]

Ventura is really, really unstable




That was not my experience. I found version 10 to be very stable indeed.

One thing you might have to watch out for, Phyllis, is that ID does not do layered character styles. In Ventura, where you have bold text overlapping italic text, you will get bold italic text (provided the fonts are properly style linked). In ID, you have to create a specific bold itals style and thus you need three styles to do what Ventura can do with two. Just something to bear in mind depending on how your files are tagged.

[P***@adobeforums.com]

Okay thanks for the info! I didn't even realize Ventura would layer character styles. That's pretty cool.

I would love to see a feature where space above/space below didn't compound in InDesign. I'm forever messing up and having space-below followed by space-above and then finding holes I have to go in and fix.

Thanks, Phyllis